RHR: How We Can Change the Future of Healthcare, with Robb Wolf

In this episode, we discuss:

• The problem with consensus science and how it impacts access to information
• What The Healthy Rebellion is
• Why we need Functional Medicine practitioners and health coaches
• The future of conventional healthcare
• What we can learn from the Chickasaw Nation
• The evolution of the ancestral health movement and how you can join The Healthy Rebellion

Show notes:

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Hey, everybody, Chris Kresser here. Welcome to another episode of Revolution Health Radio. This week, I’m really excited to welcome back for, I think his fourth visit, maybe, Robb Wolf, a dear friend of mine and someone who really needs no introduction. If you’ve been following the ancestral or Paleo nutrition and lifestyle space for any length of time, he’s really probably more instrumental than just about anybody else in advancing these concepts. And if you do know about Paleo, it’s largely because of Robb, whether you know Robb or not.

So Robb is a former research biochemist, health expert, and author of The New York Times bestseller The Paleo Solution, and Wired To Eat. He’s been a review editor for the Journal of Nutrition and Metabolism and Journal of Evolutionary Health. He serves on the board of directors of SpecialtyHealth medical clinic in Reno, Nevada, and is a consultant for the [U.S.] Naval Special Warfare resilience program. Robb is also a former California State Powerlifting champion and holds the rank of purple belt in Brazilian jiu-jitsu. He lives in Texas with his wife Nicki and his daughters, Zoe and Sagan.

I am really excited to talk to Robb about some of the challenges we’re facing with our conventional healthcare system and a unique approach that he’s taking to addressing those challenges. [He created] an online community called The Healthy Rebellion for people who want to step outside of that conventional paradigm and get the support that they need to achieve their health goals. And I think it’s such a great idea, and it’s very much in alignment with some of the stuff that I’m doing at Kresser Institute with the ADAPT training programs and some exciting things that we have in the works, so I can’t wait to talk with Robb about this. Let’s dive in.

Chris Kresser:  Robb Wolf, what is this, your third appearance on the show? At least.

Robb Wolf:  It might be. We had one of them that was lost to the ether. So I don’t know if that one counts or not.

Chris Kresser:  It’s somewhere out there. It was a good one, too. You should hear it, people. But you’re going to hear it again, because we’re doing it again. It’s an important topic. I’ve been looking forward to talking to you about it. And as a way of introducing it, why don’t you let everybody know what you’ve been up to since releasing The Paleo Solution way back in, what was that? 1595?

Robb Wolf:  Exactly. That was 318 BC. So yeah, yeah.

Chris Kresser:  It certainly feels like it. I mean, was, like, Facebook even [in existence] then? Twitter? All this stuff.

The Problem with Consensus Science and How It Impacts Access to Information

Robb Wolf:  The world was a very different place in the literal paleolithic of the Paleo diet. Yeah, so, man, so we’ve been motoring along. I’m still working on the risk assessment program in Reno. But early last summer, we noticed that our activity on Facebook was becoming really challenging. We also noticed that our site traffic to our website just plummeted. Just literally fell off a cliff. And I couldn’t quite figure out what was going on, until we saw a couple of news articles where our website was mentioned in it that some folks in this kind of Paleo ancestral health low-carb space were kind of singled out by Google in some interesting kind of guideline creation about what they deemed to be accurate and inaccurate information.

And it appears that they’ve taken upon themselves the mantle of determining what is good versus bad information. And it’s really fascinating because you see some examples of these folks weighing in on topics like virology and stuff. And it’s kind of like, “Okay, I’m sure your tech people are smart. But do they have a background in virology? Like, are they really qualified to be making a decision about what is and is not good information?”

Chris Kresser:  This is absolutely terrifying to me. I talk about this a lot because the free flow of information is critical and we could even say a precondition to a democratic society. And if we have a bunch of 25- to 35-year-old white male tech people making the decision about what information is valid or not, we’re in real trouble.

Robb Wolf:  I could not say, yeah. And it’s interesting, and not to go too far out into the weeds, but this is the thing that the “totalitarian regime” always tries to do. There’s an attempt at limiting access to information. And it’s telling when folks shift into a process like that. Like, it is messy having the free-for-all of the internet, but I’ve always had faith in the notion that people can and will kind of hash things out. And when we’re able to experiment with different dietary protocols and lifestyle protocols, then best practices tend to emerge.

And this is part of the reason why Paleo and low-carb and autoimmune and stuff like that have become popular, because folks have been able to compare notes and interface with both clinicians and researchers to get the scientific basis as it emerges. But also just kind of understanding what the clinical ramifications are. And that seems like a very wholesome, organic process. And again, it’s a little bit messy, but to your point, it seems very dangerous having a small cadre of people control the information flow.

Chris Kresser:  Yeah, I mean, the irony of that, too, is the scientific process itself is messy, and it’s based on trying to prove your hypothesis wrong, right?

Robb Wolf:  Right.

Chris Kresser:  I mean, that’s fundamental to science. And I actually wrote an email a while back about this called “The Problem with Consensus Science” where I pointed this out. This came up in my debate with James Wilks on The Game Changers where he continually referred to the established consensus among experts. And as if that were some unassailable truth that we shouldn’t even deign to question. But when you look back on the history of science, what you see is that consensus changes over time.

Robb Wolf:  Constantly.

Chris Kresser:  Constantly. And I mean, we can think of so many examples. I mean, one that was fairly recent was this big article, I can’t remember what it was in, but it just, it was about icing injuries. That’s one of the sacred cow ideas that if you get injured, you should ice it. Right? I mean, we all grew up with that. Most of us still believe that that’s true.

But they looked at the research and found that actually, it’s not only not helpful, it might even be harmful. And we have so many other examples, like stress was the sole cause of ulcers. Now we know that H. pylori [Helicobacter pylori] plays a significant role. Back in the revolutionary period of [the] 1700s, 1800s, the idea was that heavily bleeding people would cure their illness. And that’s pretty much what killed George Washington; they nearly bled him to death.

Robb Wolf:  There are 2,000-page tomes on how to properly bleed people depending on the condition and the situation, and then it was found to be completely inaccurate. I just think back to Ignaz Semmelweis, the guy who observed that women who had babies on the streets had better survivability, both they and their child did, than the wealthier women who were having babies in hospitals. And then he started digging and did what is some of the earliest well-applied epidemiology, and he noticed that when doctors went from doing autopsies directly to delivering babies, that a lot of problems occurred. And this was well before the germ theory of infection was even postulated. But he was run out of town as a crazy person for suggesting that washing one’s hands with a dilute bleach solution could mitigate some sort of transmissible condition. And we are no smarter and no dumber than the people at that time. We just have the same hubristic blocks in our worldview.

Chris Kresser:  Yeah, it’s absolutely crazy. And of course, recent examples that everyone who’s listening to this are familiar with, the idea that dietary cholesterol increases your risk of heart disease. Even the [United States] finally changed their diet guidelines because the research didn’t support that. It could no longer prop that idea up anymore.

So yeah, we have this environment where the access to uncensored information is actually changing. And I don’t think a lot of people are fully aware of that. You and I have, I think, a somewhat unique perspective because we see what’s going on behind the scenes. And it’s absolutely vital that people continue to have access to this non-dominant paradigm information. I mean, nobody would be listening to this show if they didn’t have that kind of access. So I was really excited about how you’re approaching this. Why don’t you tell us a little bit about what you’re doing around this?

For years, Robb Wolf has been instrumental in furthering the Paleo point of view. Now, he’s incorporating ancestral health, Functional Medicine, and health coaching into his new program, The Healthy Rebellion. Check out this episode of RHR to find out how. #paleo

What Is The Healthy Rebellion?

Robb Wolf:  Yeah, so I noodled on the idea of, like, a membership-type site or some sort of a paywall interface for a variety of reasons. Not the least of which is today, within the social media culture, like, the ability to have a decent conversation is almost impossible. Like, it just doesn’t matter what the topic is, things spin out into like this kind of crazy emotionality. And although I don’t want what I’m talking about to become an echo chamber, there is kind of a reality that some cross-section of people trust what I’ve got to say and kind of my worldview.

And when I was looking at kind of the, both the challenge and the opportunity raised when Google and Facebook basically made our presence more or less disappear from the interwebs, and some of the background that I’ve had with this medical risk assessment program, I identified [an] opportunity, which was basically creating a community called The Healthy Rebellion. And the goal of The Healthy Rebellion is to extricate 1 million people from the sick care system. And I’ve got kind of a three-point quantifiable, I guess, checklist for getting out of the sick care system. And the first is identifying your metabolic risk.

And that’s largely what we’ve been doing with the Reno Risk Assessment program for close to 10 years. If we know your relative metabolic health or disease, then we have some pretty good guidelines [on] how to tackle that.

The next piece is to get yourself out of the third-party payer system. And I detail this on the website. But looking into things like Medi-Shares and health savings accounts so that you can protect both yourself and your family from the exponentially increasing healthcare costs that are going to underlie the future of medicine, at least until it collapses and there’s a really dramatic change. And then, finally, everybody needs some sort of access to a Functional Medicine practitioner, likely a combination of a health coach for more day-to-day activity and then your Functional Medicine MD or nurse practitioner who can deal with the bigger problems that come up occasionally.

And so, with those three boxes ticked, that’s what I would anoint someone that they are liberated from the sick care system if they’re able to affect all of that. And I’ve been working on some of that Medi-Share payment solution because people were just getting crushed with insurance costs and getting less and less as a consequence of that. And the Medi-Share is a really fascinating option to kind of circumvent that third-party payer system.

Chris Kresser:  Yeah, we’ve talked so much about this, and we know there’s a solution. We’re not sure exactly what it is. But I think what you’ve done is a huge step in that direction. And I know most of my patients, many of our listeners and email subscribers haven’t been to the doctor in years. Or if they have, it’s been an exercise in frustration, like beating your head against the wall because they know what they need, and they know what they want, but they can’t get it in that environment.

Robb Wolf:  Right.

Chris Kresser:  And there really isn’t an alternative at this point. I mean, there are some different options out there, which you mentioned. But it’s incredibly frustrating for people to be able to envision the kind of care that they know they need and want, but not to be able to access it. And I’ve been working on that from the context of training more practitioners and more recently training health coaches, but it’s a real challenge. And I think an online platform like you described, it’s just going to help people feel like, if nothing else, that they’re not alone, which is huge.

Robb Wolf:  Absolutely. Yeah. And you know, so this online community that has so far, seemingly the benefits that we could get from social media and again, knock on wood, so far without the downside. And I think part of that is just the fact that there’s a paywall in between the knuckleheads and the folks that really want to participate there. But we’ve had great interaction with folks and we’re starting to get some in-real-life meetups with people, also.

So taking the virtual community and turning it into [a] real community. We actually tentatively have a walking trip planned through Spain in 2021. So we’ll see how all the COVID stuff plays out and whatnot. But tentatively, right now we have a Healthy Rebellion hiking group that’s going to cover a couple of miles a day and go through this really beautiful area of Spain. But we’re trying to get both that virtual support where we do the stuff that I think you and I have done for ages. Deconstructing research and trying to do synthesis, but also helping people to answer questions about what they have going on and their day-to-day health and fitness.

And every couple of months, we do a reset that draws pretty heavily from my book Wired To Eat, where we look at sleep, food, exercise, and community, and help folks to determine a specific area to work on. We need to work on all those areas, but usually people need more focus in one than another. And so that ends up being part of the overall subscription package when people sign up for that.

Chris Kresser:  Oh yeah, I think that’s so great that you’re pairing some in-person events with it. We’re actually going to be having the first ADAPT conference in 2021 almost certainly at Snowbird resort in Utah, which is up in the mountains. So some great beautiful time in nature. It really enriches the online connections when you have those in-person meetings throughout the year.

Why We Need Functional Medicine Practitioners and Health Coaches

Robb Wolf:  Absolutely, yeah. And just a quick hat tip to the ADAPT program. Back when The Paleo Solution came out in 2010, I was doing a pretty hopping seminar schedule, like 35, 40 weeks a year. I was on the road presenting this material in front of pretty good-sized groups of folks. And what was happening is that maybe 10 percent of the people attending these live events would show up with a medical folder that was thick enough to stop a hunting rifle. It was massive. And I’m not qualified to look at that stuff. I would help them try to understand maybe a little bit of what the lab values meant and whatnot. But it was obvious that there was a massive need for practitioners in this space.

And that’s when I started the Paleo Physicians Network, which was a completely uncurated, unmonitored place that [was] just kind of a hope and a prayer that people on that list had kind of this ancestral health, Functional Medicine orientation. But I will kind of pat myself on the back a little bit that I saw the need for health coaches and practitioners literally 10 years ago, that that was a major choke point with what’s going on. And I would reiterate that possibly the largest choke point occurring right now is the payer piece.

Like moving people out of the traditional third-party payer system into something like a Medi-Share or a Health Savings Account could so dramatically reduce the burn that they have on the medical side, that they could fold some of that money back into health coaching and day-to-day support to keep them healthy and motoring forward.

Chris Kresser:  I’m a hundred percent in agreement with that. I mentioned that in my latest book Unconventional Medicine, when people ask, “Oh isn’t Functional Medicine too expensive?” I say, “Well, treating someone with type 2 diabetes is about 15 grand a year, and if you’re getting diagnosed at age 30, which is increasingly happening younger and younger, that person could survive another 40 or 50 years.” You don’t have to be a math genius to figure out how expensive that is, right?

Robb Wolf:  Right.

Chris Kresser:  And how much would it cost to do six months of health coaching, nutrition coaching, and even personal fitness training when they, before they get diabetes, if they’re at the prediabetic range or even just high normal blood sugar? What? Five grand or something?

Robb Wolf:  Right.

Chris Kresser:  I would invest five grand to save 750 grand. I don’t know about you. It’s like, it seems like a pretty good ROI to me.

Robb Wolf:  Absolutely.

Chris Kresser:  And you know this, and you saw this with your work with Reno, so can you talk a little bit about that and the kind of ROI that you saw with that program?

Robb Wolf:  Yeah, this was eight, almost 10 years ago, and I became aware of it just as I arrived in Reno, but the SpecialtyHealth Clinic was working with the Reno police and fire departments. They had developed a Metabolic Risk Screening Program using advanced lipidology testing and they found 40 folks that were at high risk for type 2 diabetes and cardiovascular disease.

So they cast a net into their general population and pulled arguably the sickest of their folks out. And then they enacted kind of a low-ish carb Paleo-type diet, [and] modified sleep and exercise as best they could within this police and fire population. But based off the changes in their health risk assessment numbers, it’s estimated that the pilot study alone saved the city of Reno about $22 million with a conservative 33-to-one return on investment. Which, when I came into that, I naively thought that within five years I will have transformed medicine because anything with a 33-to-one return on investment would clearly …

Chris Kresser:  No-brainer.

Robb Wolf:  Be a no-brainer. And I think we will do something with that. But the challenges of penetrating the insurance system, the medical system have proven to be much more challenging than what I initially thought. But it’s a great proof of concept. But there were also some interesting features that I didn’t fully take into account, like the chief of police, the chief of fire, the mayor, six of the nine city council members had gone through the program.

So they were all bought in; they were all believers. And I know you’ve had some success with Berkeley Fire and some other entities, but it’s challenging to do this stuff because you really need legit buy-in at the leadership level, from the person who was able to allocate funding to make this thing happen. And all too often, what we found is we were kind of getting bled to death by people kicking the tires on this. It looked pretty cool, but they were not, in fact, the person who could make a financial decision of this magnitude.

And so it had to become a committee process, and then it would just kind of die. But this is again, like, an amazing proof of concept that using some very inexpensive metabolic risk screening can identify the highest risk folks in a given population. And then we’ve got a very, we have a solid template then for how to reverse this metabolic arrangement. If their blood pressure is high, if their blood glucose is high, if their inflammation is off the charts, then we have some great protocols for how to address all that stuff.

Chris Kresser:  I mean, that’s the thing about this. It’s not rocket science. You’ve done it. We’ve done it at CCFM [California Center for Functional Medicine] with the fire department programs. It’s like shooting fish in a barrel, to be honest, if …

Robb Wolf:  Compliance.

Chris Kresser:  Yeah, compliance, but health coaching is cracking that nut.

Robb Wolf:  Yeah, yeah.

Chris Kresser:  We’re seeing really great results. And when I say health coaching, I mean real health coaching, I don’t mean telling people what to do, which is still, unfortunately, what is often happening with people who are calling themselves health coaches. And I don’t, yeah, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. And I don’t mean this as a dig against people working against health coaches, because I have huge appreciation and respect for people who are doing it.

But I think we’ve learned a lot about what makes effective health coaching. And it’s much more about helping people to access their own motivation and strategies for change, and supporting them with accountability and helping them to resolve ambivalence and really being kind of an ally and a guide. Because, as you’ve seen in your long years of doing this work, [for] about five percent of the population, you’ll tell them what to do and they’ll do it. The rest of the 95 percent is going to need help. And so that’s, we know how to do this. That’s the point.

And it’s a question of having the political will, and perhaps economic foresight to do it. And you pointed this out many times, like the Congressional Budget Office is predicting that we’re going to, that healthcare could consume the entire federal budget by what?

Robb Wolf:  2030, 2035, yeah.

Chris Kresser:  Yeah, but that’s less than 10 years away.

Robb Wolf:  It sounded a long ways away when they first released those numbers, but that was 10 years ago, so yeah.

The Future of Conventional Healthcare

Chris Kresser:  It’s crazy. And so sometimes, it seems like people act as if the choice is just to continue with the status quo with no further deterioration or to make a shift to something like you’re suggesting, but the reality is that’s not the choice. The choice is to keep hurling toward bankruptcy and insolvency, and a complete, a healthcare system that will not survive, that will basically self-immolate, is probably the image that comes to my mind. Or making a change. That’s the actual choice that we’re facing now.

Robb Wolf:  Yeah, yeah. And the mechanism’s there; this is why, again, I love what you’re doing with the ADAPT program both at the primary care practitioner level, but also the health coach level. Like, that’s going to be a non-negotiable feature going forward of what healthcare will look like. And we have examples that are not wildly dissimilar, like the Singapore healthcare model relies heavily on health coaching and group medicine and a variety of tiered systems that are really effective and improve adherence. Like, when, instead of a doctor telling one newly minted type 2 diabetic patient about what’s going on, if you describe that to a room of 10 or 20, you have an opportunity to build a cohort around folks that are going to effect change and you get a multiplication of the effort there.

And within the Singapore healthcare system, also, they operate with a health savings account, which isn’t perfect. But again, it ends up addressing that oblique element of the third-party payer system where there’s just massive moral hazard and the only place that you can find things where like a toilet seat [that] costs $6,000 is in the government in a third-party payer system, and healthcare is similar. Like, if we bought tomatoes the same way that we do healthcare, they would be $6,000 a pound. And so this is some of the stuff, too, that even just culturally, folks maybe need to kick the tires on the potential that the way that we pay for healthcare should look a lot more like the way that we pay for auto insurance.

Like, if something catastrophic happens, then we have something in place to deal with that. And then everything else day-to-day gets dealt with, and we have innovation and competition that helps bring down prices and things tend to get cheaper and better. But we’ve, for 30, 40 years, we have not had the bulk of our system really operating that way.

What We Can Learn from the Chickasaw Nation

Chris Kresser:  So one of the most interesting laboratories for these kinds of changes are self-insured organizations and also other institutions or groups that have a little bit more autonomy and control over how they deliver healthcare like, for example, the Chickasaw Nation that I know you have spent some time working with. So tell us a little bit about your experience with them and what you learned in working with that group.

Robb Wolf:  Yeah, it’s interesting because don’t we all love confirmation bias?

Chris Kresser:  Yeah.

Robb Wolf:  It’s like if I’m going to be an idiot, I would much prefer being an idiot with somebody else. But occasionally, confirmation bias is also kind of a sign that there’s a convergent evolution occurring that what we’re doing over here and what these folks are doing over there may be looking at a problem in a similar way and finding similar solutions. And it was really interesting.

One day, about five years ago, I got an email from a director at the Chickasaw Nation. And he was basically making a request, which we had received a lot of. We’ve heard about your risk assessment program, [and] we’d like to talk to you about incorporating some of what you’re doing within our tribe. And like I said earlier, we’ve been kind of almost dead by 1,000 cuts from people interested in the program, but unwilling or unable to pay for it. And so I was a little bit hesitant to even return the guy’s email. But it was a really craftily written email. It was engaging. And so I wrote the guy back. And before I know it, I’m on their board of directors for their Unconquered Life initiative, which is really interesting because I’ve always envisioned a medical clinic interface with primary care practitioners, health coaches of a variety of flavors, gyms, and kind of an online element to be able to glue all this stuff together.

And running the whole thing is kind of an ancestral health framework plus Functional Medicine. And these folks had arrived at largely that same solution. They had tried this thing, tried that thing, tried the other thing. And via iteration over the course of about five to seven years, they arrived at kind of a low-ish carb Paleo-type diet, Functional Medicine interventions for dealing with underlying health conditions like autoimmunity, and then the need for the community medicine element ranging from the primary care practitioner to the health coach to the gym interface. And so I got to work with those folks for a couple of years. And their program is motoring along; it’s doing pretty well. So that was cool.

And again, it was either a confirmation bias, just supporting my already goofy ideas, or it was actually an example of some folks that grew this thing up in a completely different environment, but found effectively the same solutions that we’ve been talking about in Reno.

Chris Kresser:  Yeah, it’s, I’m actually, you and I both have had this experience of occasionally feeling frustrated and maybe even a little pessimistic. But I think we’re also both still largely optimistic about what can be done when you get, human ingenuity should never be underestimated. And I think we’ve both seen many signs now, certainly from outside of the status quo, the dominant paradigm, but even from within it, that people are starting to wake up to this and they understand the problem.

There may still be some disagreement about the solution. But I think most people that I encounter, even within the conventional healthcare environment, are not, they see that this is not, we’re not heading in a good direction, and it’s not sustainable. So I’m excited about The Healthy Rebellion as a proof of concept. Because I think these proofs of concept are going to be what provide the evidence to law makers and stakeholders, payers and providers that the new model works and it’s something that can address the pretty dire problems that we’re facing at this point.

The Evolution of the Ancestral Health Movement and How You Can Join The Healthy Rebellion

Robb Wolf:  Absolutely. And the cool thing with this is that if the numbers that we can produce are even remotely what we’ve seen from the Reno program, it’s like nothing else in the world. And we don’t need a massive sample size to be able to get a solid proof of concept, and then, heck, at that point, maybe we make the whole concept open source and have, here’s how you do it. Because although there’s an opportunity to make a living and all that off this, I think avoiding the collapse of Western civilization, there’s some pretty strong enlightened self-interest there for me, particularly having two young kids.

And so, we’ve kicked that idea around, too, which is once we get some proof of concept on this, we’re kind of willing to just somewhat like open source code. It’s like, “Hey, here’s your Arthur Murray dance school. Put your left foot here, put your right foot there; don’t invent anything because you don’t know what you’re doing yet. Just follow the guidelines that we give you and you’ll be able to really effect some amazing change.” So I’m optimistic that we’ll be able to get something like that going in the not too distant future.

Chris Kresser:  Yeah, I am, too. And I think you have such a wealth of experience in this world with your work with Reno and [the] Chickasaw Nation, and all the traveling and workshops you did way back in the day when you were teaching about this stuff before anybody had heard of it. It wasn’t, like, a cool thing then, where celebrities were doing [it]. And it didn’t even show up on the U.S. News & World Report Worst Diet, right? Because they didn’t know about it.

Robb Wolf:  They didn’t even know what it was. Yeah. There was a day when there was not a Paleo Diet section in bookstores, and that was the time before The Paleo Solution. Yeah.

Chris Kresser:  Nobody had any, I remember, like, when John Durant went on Colbert [The Colbert Report].

Robb Wolf:  Yeah.

Chris Kresser:  They were still, like, totally making fun of the caveman angle and, like, nobody had really heard of it at that point. So, yeah, I mean, you have a wealth of experience in this area, and I think both everything from working with people individually as a gym owner to teaching and speaking to large groups, working with municipalities and groups like the Chickasaw Nation, and it’s just cool to see how this has evolved for you and how you have arrived at an understanding of what needs to change and how we need to do that. And The Healthy Rebellion is an awesome way of solving that problem. So, if people want to learn more about it and join up, how do they do that?

Robb Wolf:  Join.TheHealthyRebellion.com and you can kind of see my unabomber-esque manifesto on there about this whole three-point element of exiting the sick care system and also the, I guess, the journey of arriving at this point, dealing with the information monopolies.

Also, something that’s really central to what we’re up to, supporting the regenerative agriculture movement. I had originally intended having some piece to this manifesto that would include opting out of the industrial food system. But unlike these very quantifiable benchmarks for exiting the sick care system, what it means to be completely out of the industrial ag system is really nebulous. And so, instead of making that something that is arbitrary and kind of oblique, [it] is just kind of a core value that we support that.

But we’re really looking at developing support, circumventing the information monopoly, so that people have free exchange of information and ideas, and the ability to hash that stuff out, all of that out on their own, and then there’s the basic community support for effecting change in their lives.

Chris Kresser:  Cool. Robb, thanks so much for joining us and for moving the conversation forward as you so often have over the years. It’s exciting to see what’s happening with [The] Healthy Rebellion. I know you guys had a lot of success with it, and people are really digging it. I’ve heard great things about it. So go over and check it out, [The] Healthy Rebellion. And Robb, I’m sure we’ll talk to you again in the not too distant future.

Robb Wolf:  Absolutely. Take care, Chris. Thank you.

Chris Kresser:  You too. Bye-bye.